Interview With Tiny Knives

Originally appeared in Maximum Rocknroll #397 (June 2016).

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Portland’s Tiny Knives are one of the last holdouts from a powerful period in the city’s recent punk past. For me, they symbolize a time when you could go to a house show almost seven days a week and never see the same band twice. Growing out of the now-defunct Cook Street punk house, a onetime hub for art punks and bike punks alike, Tiny Knives has remained resilient while much of the scene they emerged from has been forced out by the city’s greed. In spite of this, Tiny Knives continues to put out song after song of rage and frustration. Their music, violent and cleansing, is an attack on everything this shitty oppressive world does to tear people apart and shut people down. It’s an emotional purge of the toxicities of this modern hell we call culture. On a recent trip back to Portland I sat down for a few drinks with guitarist and vocalist Jai Milx, bassist Ursula Morton, and drummer Jamey Anderson, to discuss their history and their newest record, Black Haze.

What brought the three of you together?
Jai: Jamey and I played a little bit of music together in a group that was at Cook Street. The group was Soo Koelbli from Big Black Cloud, Kitty Celeste, Adriane Ackerman, and a bunch of female people. We all played music together a couple times, and then nothing came of it. Ursula and I had talked about playing music like a year before. We talked about jamming on some stuff. I was in Popitilopitilus, but I wanted to play my own songs.
Ursula: Bob Jones, who was playing in Popitilopitilus, kept saying, “You should start a band with Jai,” and then I’d go and watch her and I’d be like, “Yeah, I’d really be into that.”

And Jamey was in the Vonneguts around this time?
Jai: Popitilopitilus and the Vonneguts had played together, and Jamey moved in around the corner so we were getting to know each other.
Jamey: We started hanging out a bit. Then I quit the Vonneguts, and was bandless for a while.
Jai: We were playing music in the summer with that project at Cook Street, but then when it got to winter I said to Captain Shirt, my partner at the time, “I just really want to start a band with people,” and he was like, “What about Jamey and Ursula?”
Ursula: I think Shirt and I met through Bob Jones too.

Was there a conscious decision to make Tiny Knives an all female band?
Ursula: Nope.
Jai: It was pretty circumstantial.

That’s interesting because when I lived in Portland that was the impression I got, and that seemed to be the emphasis.
Jai: I think that emphasis is put on us. 
Jamey: For sure.
Jai: I understand that’s a point of interest and intersection with people who enjoy our music, and I enjoy seeing all female or queer bands. We actually were initially talking about adding other members, but it’s just that the three of us clicked so well, and we were making a full enough sound on our own.
Jamey: I had literally not met Ursula until the day we jammed.
Ursula: I had just seen Jamey play in the Vonneguts.

Is there a backstory to the name Tiny Knives?
Jamey: We were sitting at the Florida Room, trying our damnedest to come up with something. We came up with a few that were already taken. We were coming up with some that were terrible, like an-animal-plus-something-else bullshit.
Ursula: I was really into Hawk Moth. It ended up being a metal band from Australia or something.
Jamey: Yeah, we couldn’t do it. Any time we’d come up with something cool we’d Google it and find there’d already be a band named that. Like Mirror Mirror was probably my favorite band name. Eventually, I suggested Tiny Knives because I’m a knife nerd, and I’ve had a tiny knives collection for quite awhile. 
Jai: I think it was partially inspired by Jamey’s tattoo too. Because Jamey has a little knife tattooed behind her ear.
Ursula: Jamey has a stick and poke that she had long before we were a band. Now we all have tiny knife tattoos that are from a more detailed, ornate, drawing that Jai did with fancy jewels and everything. Jai and Jamey have it on their forearms and mine is on my foot.

I’ve always been a little hesitant about labeling Tiny Knives a riot grrl band. I feel like it’s really easy to label female punk bands that. How would you describe your band?
Jai: I’ve started to say we’re a heavy band. When we started I think punk and post-punk were both really comfortable labels for what we we’re doing, but as we’ve kept going we’ve incorporated more elements of metal, hardcore, and noise. I think Eolian, the label we’re on, inspired me to start using the word “heavy” because they’re self-described as heavy music. I’ve started to just say that too because I don’t want to say that we’re a “punk post-punk hardcore metal band.” (laughs)
Ursula: I actually like thrashy, sludgy punk. But not “punk metal.” (everyone laughs)

Can you list some of the music that has influenced you?
Jamey: I grew up on riot grrl and hip-hop in equal amounts. And soul.
Ursula: I’m from the Midwest, so I was really into Dow Jones and the Industrials, and 70s punk bands from the Midwest. But then one of my favorite bands has always been Mudhoney. When I was younger I was really into Slayer, Death, Cannibal Corpse, and all these heavy death metal bands.
Jai: I grew up really loving riot grrl. I discovered Kill Rock Stars when I was fifteen, and I was so pumped and ready to order stuff from them. That definitely was a huge early influence on me. I listen to soul, girl groups, and oldies. And I listen to a lot of R&B these days. But growing up I loved the 77 New York punk bands, the CBGB scene, Richard Hell, Television. Patti Smith was a huge influence. Those were some of the first punk bands that I got into. I loved them because they were so intelligent and irreverent at the same time. And a lot of the punk that was being made in the 90s when I was growing up, especially in upstate New York, was just bro-ey hardcore. I had no intersectionality with that whatsoever.
Ursula: I was also obsessed with a lot of Kill Rock Stars bands. Unwound was one of my favorite bands.
Jamey: Budgie from Siouxsie and the Banshees has always been an influence on me as a drummer. All of his tom work and other stuff that he does.

There’s been some talk about sexism within the Portland metal scene. Is that something you all have experienced?
Jamey: It’s in the music scene. It’s honestly probably less in the metal scene, especially as far as the folks from Eolian go. It’s just something you deal with.
Jai: We’ve been around long enough at this point that we’ve garnered a certain kind of respect. Sexism is definitely alive and well in this scene. It’s something you have to work at being comfortable and confident with because people are going to assume that you don’t know what you’re talking about. And that’s a real ass thing about being a female musician.
Jamey: It’s often sound guys. What the fuck is up with sound guys?
Jai: Sexism manifests itself in the fact that we are constantly being reminded about the reality of us being a female band.

Right, and that’s why I wasn’t sure about asking you a question like this.
Jai: It’s both positive and negative. People who are female, or queer, or trans, feel empowered and excited by us being an all female band, and empowered to make their own music. I feel so fortunate about that aspect of it. But the other side of it is that people come up to you after you perform and are like, “Whoa, you chicks rule. Like you totally slayed it.” Of course, in Portland we get that less. You can walk into a music store here and someone’s not going to treat you like an idiot. 
Jamey: After we get done playing there’s bewildered surprise from dudes that would have judged us.
Ursula: I tend to be kind of quiet and mysterious or something, and then after shows I get that, but I don’t think it has to do with my gender so much as just my personality. I always get people coming up to me after they saw us for the first time, and going “Wow! You guys shred.” 
Jai: I have to say, I don’t think male vocalists get bros coming up to them after a show and being like, “That was so raw and vulnerable!” I don’t think that happens to male front people. At our last show at the Kenton Club three different men came up to me and told me, with slight variations of the words, that I was raw and vulnerable. I don’t think that happens to “Vlad” from some black metal group. No one says to him, “Man, that was so deep and I just go this impression of you as a vulnerable human being,” and then hugs them. I don’t think that’s happens to male vocalists.

Why did it take four years to release this album?
Jai: Originally when we started the band I was bringing a lot of the material, and then we’d finish writing the songs together. I’d have the basic construct of the song. Usually, I’d write the words first, and because I was just getting started I’d write them on acoustic guitar, then transfer to electric. Over time, and throughout our album Static, Ursula started bringing more and more ideas, riffs, and concepts. With this album Ursula actually generated the bulk of two of the songs, “Winter” and “Dark History.”
Jamey: Those are songs that Ursula brought to the table.
Jai: And she created the framework and had them pretty much done as far as her part went. We barely tinkered with the structure of those, really.
Jamey: We didn’t have to because they were so awesome and complex already.
Ursula: We’d add parts to them. Jai would come up with like a shell of a song, and we’ll add a bunch of stuff to it. And Jamey’s really good with song structure. But mostly I add the weird parts to everything.
Jai: This album was like pulling teeth for me. I was having trouble coming up with words. I was feeling really creatively blocked immediately after Static came out. And so the progress was really slow. In fact, we finished recording this album a year and a half ago, and then there were a bunch of stumbling blocks.
Ursula: It took awhile just to get together the artwork. And I think a lot of it is we usually play so many shows. This is the longest we’ve gone without playing a show — this period right now. Usually, we’re playing so many shows. We’re practicing our songs for our shows, and then not having enough time to work on new songs.

Does it come with just being active in life?
Jamey: I think for Ursula and I maybe more so.
Ursula: We work a lot. And Jai travels a lot too.
Jai: I’m out of town for two or three months out of the year.
Ursula: We already do have like four new songs.
Jai: We have two new songs written, and two others that are well on their way.
Ursula: We have a new song that is kind of like, not a concept, but…
Jai: A medley. We’re trying to write a multipart song, that’s like a journey. 
Jamey: It’s going to be EP length.
Ursula: Like four songs that can stand alone, but that are all one song also.
Jai: And linked thematically. The theme is gentrification. 
Jamey: Which is appropriate for fucking Portland.

How did you get involved with Eolian?
Jai: Josh from Eolian came up to both Ursula and I separately. He talked to us about really liking our band, and that he was interested in putting out a record. This was very early in the days of him taking over Eolian. He hit the ground running. He’s put out several dozen releases in the recent past.

The way I see it, Eolian is taking on every Portland band I still like.
Jai: They get described a lot in reviews of the label and the bands and stuff, including in one of our reviews, as weird, heavy music.
Jamey: Which is appropriate.
Jai: They’re open to non-conforming heavy music.
Jamey: It’s nice to have someone with distribution and contacts with promotion.

Who recorded the album?
Jamey: Caravan Recording. It’s Andrew Grosse and Jose De Lara, but Andrew mostly did the recording, and Jose did the mastering and mixing.

Is this Andrew and Jose’s portable recording service?
Jai: Yeah, but we did it in a space that Andrew had at the time. 
Ursula: The idea of the portable recording is that they can go anywhere. For example, they recorded Oro Azoro in a church. The idea is that they can be mobile if you want to record in your bathroom or your practice space or whatever. But they also have a studio.
Jai: With isolation.
Jamey: Which they have for bands that just want to come to them, like us. And it was awesome. I mean we’ve worked with Jose on every single album we’ve put out, and have been happy every time. 
Jai: He mastered the first album and was instrumental in recording the other two.
Jamey: Jose paired with Andrew was really amazing, because Andrew had some really good ideas about how to mic the drums.

The first song on the album, “Dark History,” is very guttural. It has an almost metal sound to it. The vocals are like something you’d hear on a grindcore record. Is this a new direction for Tiny Knives?
Jamey: It’s a progression.
Jai: I feel in some ways we have gotten heavier. For me, it’s in experimenting with singing, and with delivering in a guttural, intensely unpretty way. I laughingly call it my Cookie Monster vocals. I think a lot of my interests in the beginning laid with the rock ’n’ roll side of punk, and I didn’t know how to play metal, or grindcore, or other things, but as my musicality has improved I want to experiment. And I think that was intentionally a direction I went in with my vocals, and I’m not even sure that I’ll continue. I want to keep doing different things, and constantly be incorporating different kinds of music. That’s just how I am. I like to write in a lot of different veins.
Jamey: One of the things I love about this band is it’s always progressing, and changing in the best possible way. I’m never bored when we’re writing songs.

The cover of Black Haze is really strikingly different from the other covers. I mean, it’s really intense. You have these huge swords.
Ursula: The great sword was a Christmas present from me to Jose, and the short sword was a birthday present to me from Jose. The other sword we borrowed from our friend Arolia’s son, Dagon. 
Jai: Eolian offered us the services of their photographer, James Rexroad. He’s a photojournalist. He took amazing pictures of when the conflict in Serbia was happening. He’s actually notorious, and bankrolled his life for a long time because he took a picture of Kurt Cobain’s dead body in Seattle. It was iconic and printed all over the place. So, we had the opportunity to take these pictures. The whole thing was my idea. I wanted to make a departure, something that was very much about us, and where we are at right now. I wanted to concretely tell someone this is who we are before they even listened to the music.

The previous albums, while they had their heavy moments, always had their lighter rock moments. Was there a conscious intent to make this album more cohesive in its sound?
Jai: No, but I’m glad to hear it.
Ursula: “The Fuck” is kind of like a more experimental, noisy song.
Jamey: I don’t know, “Silk In The Water” is pretty rock.
Ursula: “Past Tense” is a little more punk than the other songs.
Jai: Well, it’s got a post-punk feel to it.
Ursula: I mean, we can do that, where it kind of depends on who we are playing with. If we’re playing with a bunch of heavy bands, we can just play a bunch of heavy songs. And if we are playing with more punk bands we can play our less heavy songs.
Jai: I think that people expect that we are going to continually jump around with styles, but we are constantly working towards making a sound. One thing is that my gear has gotten a lot better. Ursula and Jamey’s gear has always been great, but I finally could afford to get a decent amp and some good pedals, instead of like the shitty $30 Metal Zone pedal I was using when we started. So I think as my gear has improved as well as all of our musicality has improved, we’re probably going to be more cohesive in our sound, but I think we’re never going to stop trying to branch out and do different things. I think this is a dark album though, largely because I was feeling really harsh, and really dark when we were writing it.

My favorite song on the new album is “Cowschwitz,” which has a kind of monologue in it that reminds me of something Crass would do. Can you talk a little bit about what inspired this song?
Jai: That’s actually the only song on the album where all the words were written before we wrote the song. We were on tour and in the van driving through that area that’s in-between San Francisco and Los Angeles, and there’s about two miles where there’s a bunch of beef lots. I’ve heard that they are for McDonald’s. But they’re terrible conditions. It’s just shit and mud. Before you get there you can smell it. You can smell it miles before. And every time you’re in a car, even if you roll up the windows and turn off the fan and— 
Jamey: Roll up the windows!
Ursula: And in like 90 degree weather. 
Jai: Yeah, in the summer time. That was the hottest tour ever. And we were driving through it, and I just got my notebook and I wrote every word of that song. No other song on the album came out that way.

The name “Cowschwitz” comes from a certain ranch, right?
Jai: See, “Cowschwitz” was something I’ve heard musicians in our scene in Portland refer to that area as. I was a vegetarian for thirteen years of my life. I eat meat now and I eat it regularly. But the idea of just creating such a shitty world for those animals and then putting it into your body is what inspired the song. At one point in the song I say, “humans create their own pain” and that’s like we are making this ugly fucking world and we are making it a part of ourselves, and that’s disgusting.
Jamey: I just learned this today, but schwitzen is “to sweat” in German, so it’s like cow sweat.

I thought it was in reference to Auschwitz.
Ursula: Yeah, that’s the idea.
Jai: I was a little concerned about naming it that, because I didn’t want it to be triggering to people in regards to the Holocaust. But it’s so much what that place is, and it’s such an iconic name for that terrible place. That’s what it’s called and I couldn’t change it.
Ursula: I mean, we all eat meat, and we try to eat conscientiously. I was vegetarian for ten years mainly because places like this exist.

“Cowschwitz” is kind of about suffering and pain but it’s a political song. A lot of your earlier songs are about personal suffering. Is there much of a difference for you between writing political or personal material?
Jai: Well, going back to the new stuff we’re working on about gentrification, I realized conversations I was having were about this issue daily. I went to Oakland for nine days, and every time I’d go to a party that’s the conversation I’d be having. I need to be putting this into my art. I need to be channeling this, because it’s destroying me. It’s paining me to watch other people’s struggles, and to experience my community being dispersed, and to be consistently affected by this menacing yuppie monstrosity. I identify as an anarchist and for me isolating the personal from the political experience is a very foolish road. My intersectionality with radicalism is about empathy. About being like: oh my god, these people are oppressed every day of their lives! People of color and queers, on a daily basis these people struggle in a very real way. Anyone who is like “I’m an oppressed person, I’m a woman, I’m queer, I’m a person of color, and I go out there on the street and I experience that every time I leave my house in some way.” To me that’s one of the most important things to the pathos of that, and trying to have relationships with other people in the face of that, both romantic and friendly and just in the world. It’s so difficult, and it carries so much weight. And to me there really is no separating the two.

When I listen to other bands who are political, and when I listen to musicians who are personal, they are usually one or the other, and there’s really few who can get that right in the middle, and I think you do that very well.
Jai: I think that holding an immense amount of anger over the world that we live in being so fucked is a giant driving force in why I make my music. It took me years to isolate and appreciate that anger, to actually acknowledge it for what it is. I didn’t want to be an angry mad person and, because I had a lot of self-esteem and depression issues, I was suppressing it and turning it against myself. Playing this music is incredibly cathartic to me because it allows me to channel other people’s and my own feelings of dysphoria and frustration with being in this world. It allows me to get it outside of my body in a very primal way. One of my new friends told me when he saw our band play this summer it was like watching an exorcism, and I was really flattered by that. In some ways I’m trying to make the space as safe as possible, and just clear that out of my system, and out of anyone’s system that wants to feel that and is listening.

Can you talk about “Silk In The Water”?
Jai: A lot of people don’t know this, but I also play pretty, acoustic music. And as we’ve been writing more guttural songs, to use your word from earlier, it’s been really challenging for me to play those songs, because my voice is gone half the time. “Silk In The Water” is a song that I wrote when I was maybe twenty-two years old. It was years and years ago. I wrote the basis of it, but it was a totally different song, and then Ursula and I went to work on it, hacked it into pieces, and then put it back together. That song was our albatross. 
Jamey: We reworked it and reworked it and reworked it.
Jai: It was the hardest song on the album for us. We’ve done a lot of down tempo, prettier songs. “Ocean of Static Sky” on Static is a good example. That’s a very personal song, but “Silk In The Water” is more intentionally generalized. One of the central themes of that song is “I’m eating myself from the inside, and I’m corroding myself from inside” and the “Silk In The Water” name comes from a line that goes “silk in the water, dreams cannot keep their color.” There’s this idea that over time the world just wears people down and ruins them, and dissipates their most central identity and force. That’s loosely what I was talking about, but the lyrics are pretty oblique. But that’s personally where I was coming from when I originally wrote that song. And as we re-worked it, at the end I tried to make it a little more triumphant. The last words of the song are “decimate, let it rise.” It’s just trying to clear that and then allow health to come up from a ruined place.

I think culturally we usually don’t associate healing with violent, abrasive music.
Jai: We need to tear down innumerable things in our world to create a world where anyone can be a healthy person. And what I mean by healthy isn’t about eating kale everyday, but it’s about being a well-balanced person who isn’t carrying the ills of society as a sickness in their body. We have so much work to do as individuals and as a culture to even create a world where people can grow up and not be ruined by our culture. Everyone that I’m close with has suffered from being a person in this world in a very real and primal way.
Jamey: I think thinking about the way you’re interacting with the world, and how the world affects you, is fucking healthy. And Jai’s lyrics are helping people think about that.
Jai: I don’t know if they can hear them though. (laughs)

You also include two songs on Black Haze from your first album: “Magic Christians” and “Lights in the Sky.” Why re-record songs from four or five years ago?
Jai: I was the one who wanted to rewrite those songs. I had always felt like those two songs got the shaft in our first recording because “Magic Christians” was so guttural and predated our sound being dialed in, as far as being heavy goes. Our first album was a lot airier than this one. 
Ursula: Also, I was going to say that we changed both of those songs. We revamped them. 
Jai: And for “Magic Christians,” I just felt that song deserved a spotlight, because it’s a song that’s always been in our sets. We may not play it all the time, but we’ve revisited it and come back to it. And I felt that song needed some tweaking. I felt like it fit in with the other stuff we were playing, and we revamped it and reworked it and changed the middle pretty significantly. And I changed some of the things I was doing. As far as “Lights In The Sky” goes though, that was a song that dissatisfied me the most of all the songs we ever recorded. It was a slightly flubby recording. We went with the take even though it wasn’t the best. It was when we were first getting started.
Jamey: Was it the second song we ever recorded?
Jai: I wrote it years before I moved to Cook Street. It was the second song I brought to the band. The reason I wanted to revisit “Lights In The Sky” was because that song was about an experience I had being in an emotionally abusive relationship. It’s about being in Belgium and having an incredibly bad time, and being shouted at out on the street by this person. I wanted to revisit it because I thought that it was obvious to some extent from the lyrics what was going on, but I wanted to make it incredibly obvious, because I don’t think when people see me, or talk to me, or know me, they would expect I would have been in that kind of situation. I ended up writing this song and using it as a way to get past that experience and the trauma surrounding that. I was so dissatisfied with the recording, and I saw an opportunity to tweak the lyrics a little bit and make them more obvious. I added a number of lyrics but one of them that I added was “I know you’ve been abused, but it isn’t an excuse, you don’t know the way to break the cycle and change.” And so I wanted to revamp that song, and because I thought it was worthy of a better recording. I wanted to revisit that because I think abuse is a very real thing that a lot of people survive and struggle with. I experience PTSD from that relationship, and I wanted to make that incredibly obvious, and make it clear that is what the anger in the song is generating from, and what the desire for moving past and healing was generating from.

What’s the future for Tiny Knives?
Jamey: It’s kind of up to Jai. She’s threatening to move away.
Jai: I want to move somewhere I can buy a house, and that place is not Portland, Oregon. But I’m really stoked about writing this new cycle of songs. I keep joking about Abbey Road and the Paul McCartney songs, but I want to combine a bunch of songs into one sonic piece that are all really different and represent all of the different styles we have, but that are all recognizing oppression, and the way that is playing out around us. Calling out yuppies, of course, but also recognizing your own place in the web of gentrification.
Jamey: Yep.
Jai: And I feel incredibly passionate about that as a human being, and I feel really excited about working on that as a band.
Jamey: Me too.
Jai: That’s the immediate future, but long term future: we’re family, and I hope we play music together until we die.

Vernacular Visions: An Interview With Justin Clifford Rhody

This interview originally appeared at The Conversant (September 2015) but the website has disappeared so I’m reposting it here.

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I first saw Justin Clifford Rhody’s monthly slideshow Vernacular Visions at Huffin House, a live-in warehouse space in East Oakland. The lights were turned off, and a large crowd of intoxicated partygoers huddled on couches, chairs, and on the carpet as Rhody projected a series of random, unrelated images onto a blank wall. Underneath the hum of the slide projector and a mixtape soundtrack, Rhody provided a tongue-in-cheek voiceover to the slides, something akin to a DVD commentary track but one that welcomed and interacted with the viewer. As I returned each month to see Vernacular Visions at it’s various locations, but most prominently at Lake Merritt in Oakland, I saw that each slide, taken out of its cultural, historical, and personal context, could be seen in a new association. Images that were originally disregarded as having no value suddenly had opportunities to be re-interpreted, and re-valued, often on artistic grounds. It’s what the surrealists might refer to as poetry made by all. Earlier this year, I sat down with Rhody at his East Oakland apartment for a question and answer session about Vernacular Visions and the ideas behind the project.

B: Where did you live before the Bay Area?

J: I was born and raised in Flint, Michigan. I grew up there, but then after high school I’ve just kind of lived in a lot of different places: Indiana, North Carolina, Maine, Seattle for two months.

B: Have you always been interested in photography?

J: No, music was my major focus before. I always played in bands and for thirteen years I ran a record label called Friends & Relatives. 2006 was when I became more serious about photography, as in doing it all the time, and less randomly.

B: Do you have a formal art background? Are you self-taught?

J: I don’t have any background. I didn’t go to school at all. I got out of high school early and really hated it. But, as I’m saying this, coincidentally, I started going to college this year for the first time. I’m thirty.

B: What are you studying?

J: Photography. I don’t know if school will be my favorite thing, and I don’t know how much I’ll get out of it, but it’s better than working for a living. And I get some grant because I’m older. I have access to all of these resources, and it’s been fun. It’s much more relaxing than customer service. I don’t think that the good Lord designed me to a help people along in their purchases [laughs].

B: It’s strange hearing that you’re going back to school, because you’re already a respected photographer. Do you notices a difference between how you approach photography and how other students approach photography?

J: Most people are concerned with making a living, especially at the community college level. You get people from a different spectrum than if it was at the Art Institute. People are interested in commercial interests, and they just don’t believe you if you’re like, “I don’t want to do that.” I couldn’t imagine going and photographing weddings, or like, babies [laughs].

B: How would you describe Vernacular Visions?

J: I would say it’s a slideshow of found 35mm photo slides, which happens monthly in the East Bay, mostly. It’s comprised of photo slides that I gather by the thousands from flea markets, and junk stores, and I then edit together an entertaining, or at least interesting, show. I make a unique soundtrack from records for each show, and it’s been a big hit. And every other month there is a guest presenter, usually a photographer or a filmmaker.

B: How did you first get interested in found slides?

J: I always enjoyed collecting found photos. When I was in high school I remember I used to collect them from the dumpster behind a photo lab. But at flea markets here in the Bay Area I had been coming across these slides, and originally I had been doing slideshows of my own photos and traveling with that. So, it was fun just to buy them, and at home go through them. We don’t have a television, so showing slides was kind of like our entertainment. That’s all we’d do all night. Then we just started keeping the best of, and when people would come over that’s what we’d show them for fun. People seemed to like it a lot. Initially, it was going to be a one-off thing, and then it just snowballed into something much larger.

B: You get your slides primarily from flea markets?

J: Yeah, and junk stores. I’ve never bought them online. I wonder when the supply is going to run dry?

B: What makes a slide worth being shown?

J: That’s the part that’s the most fun, organizing it. Because initially it was more or less just a visual exercise, like looking through them, thinking about why this photograph works, and why this photograph doesn’t work. Sometimes you can witness the photographer’s intention, like if they used a point-and-shoot camera with the viewfinder slightly off. They’re just an inch off of what they thought they were photographing. A pole or a hand interjects, and cuts the composition. It’s kind of like the cut-up method of Brion Gysin, and the stuff Burroughs did with audiotape and text. It’s kind of like a photo book, because the sequence of images, what comes before and after, affects the way that they’re each viewed. It’s like a mixtape. Sometimes there are images of iconic landmarks that every tourist photographs, and when you have a bunch of them together it really changes the meaning of the individual images.

B: Is there a reason why you chose 35mm slides as opposed to just curating found photos?

J: Largely, it’s a spatial issue. I do have boxes of found print photos, but to display them I’d have to have the physical space. And it also requires a different amount of time, like all this time being in a gallery space.

It’s also fun the way that slides are just naturally set up for projection, and blend themselves easily to video projection. You know, it’s a show, it’s a slideshow. I’m doing it in this public way without the context of who took the photos, but the people who took the photos showed them in a similar way, just to their bored family members instead.

B: I always thought of it like, you can find photographs anywhere, but with slides people took an extra step to make an image a slide. There is something more unique about them.

J: Like all the Kodachrome slides. These were made from topnotch color film that was supposed to last for at least fifty years. Whereas the other color negatives, they would partially fade. So, just that intention, these people seem more serious about it, because they were paying extra for a special type of film.

B: When you’re looking through the slides, can you recognize what photos are domestic versus photos that are made for artistic reasons? Do you make a distinction between these types?

J: I suppose there are different forms of artistic intention. Everyone is trying to make a good photo, but there are some that scream “art school,” and you can see it right away. Maybe I’ll throw a few in for fun, but by and large they feel a little vapid.

B: Some of the photos you show do seem to have an artistic purpose, like maybe this person is trying to do some kind of composition.

J: That’s something that goes through my head a lot. Imagining what the person had intended. But the art stuff is different than the general attitudes that come out of these vernacular photographs. The art stuff is more like, “This is an assignment. I’m photographing this fence with a polarizing filter at 3pm.” But the stuff we are really working with here, these common photos, they share the same aesthetic you see in some of the finest photographer’s work, like Walker Evans. You have to sift through a lot of fat to get to the bone though.

B: How do you feel about people who think that are being wronged or defamed by the showing of this found material?

J: There have been a few times when there have been slides where people are naked. I don’t show the pornographic stuff. There was one that was a side view of a pregnant mother. It’s not erotic. It’s not pornography. But it is a nude, and that’s an issue I can imagine someone might really care about. I try to consider where I’ll be showing the image. If it’s at Lake Merritt to a small crowd of people who are there with photographic, artistic intentions, than I’m less concerned about the work being viewed in a perverse light.

B: Many of the Vernacular Visions are held in DIY spaces (Black Hole Cinematheque, the basement of Vacation, Huffin House), but most of them are at Lake Merritt. What’s the appeal of using a public space to show these slides?

J: I would like more things to be happening in these public spheres. I live near Lake Merritt, and it’s really beautiful. In Oakland there are a lot of street corners and parking lots you might not want to set up your stuff at and start doing a show. There are some rougher areas. But Lake Merritt is really beautiful. I saw there was an electrical outlet, brought something to test it out, and it had power. It’s also a centralized location, so people can come from all over Oakland.

B: What is that structure you set up by, a gazebo?

J: Yeah, a weird gazebo; really tall. We’ve had issues when thinking of where to hold shows, because even though it might be a great space, I want as many different types of people to feel comfortable as possible. The basement of a dirty punk warehouse is like a dungeon. It could be really great, but certain people may not come. And galleries are kind of like the polar opposite of that. Sometimes I imagine that would be so ideal and perfect, except for the general vibe of the place. It’s a little bleached or something. Galleries are generally not a space where creativity is occurring. Instead, it’s the space in which its being documented, stamped, pressed, and showcased.

B: When you’re doing a slideshow, you supplement it with a rather flippant and casual commentary, and you always seem to play a mixtape. How did you come to this approach?

J: I came to that approach because humor and casualness are good tools if you’re uncomfortable and nervous. Before showing found slides, I had begun traveling like a band would on tour, but with a slideshow set up showing my own photos.

And it was also that I don’t really like the experience of performing, especially if I was just going to hold a guitar and sing. The slideshow just seemed like the best option. No one is staring at me. I’m behind the projector. I’m getting to show my photos. I don’t have to work very hard, and it’s still a traveling show, which is fun.

B: Sometimes at Vernacular Visions it almost feels like people are just hanging out. You have the tape going, you’re talking, and I think people feel really comfortable with that.

J: I’ve tried to encourage that. And the thing I often say is that, unlike a movie where you have to follow the storyline, at the slideshows you should feel comfortable to talk out loud. Maybe it’s too much of a Fifties vibe, but I’d love it if there were teenagers in the back making out \[laughs]. I don’t think teenagers come, but that would be wonderful. That would be great!

B: When I was looking at your photography the first thing I asked myself was how your photography related to these found slides. Do you see a connection?

J: Yeah, I think there’s a connection. Not just by organizing the Vernacular Visions series, but even before that as I was just viewing images. I had this veracious appetite for imagery and for photography, and thinking about the still image. It wasn’t particularly easy growing up to find interesting art photography. The type of stuff that I was coming across was more like William Wegman. You know, with the two dogs. He dresses his dogs up \[laughs]. I’m not moved by it.

You know with the found slides, and my own work too, the reason they seem to work is because of that implied narrative. What exists outside of the frame. Not necessarily trying to tell a story, because they can’t, but it’s more exciting for a still image to feel larger, rather than something constructed, where there’s nothing beyond it.

B: At the last Vernacular Visions I attended at Artists’ Television Access, I felt like at times you were juxtaposing things in both cultural and historical ways.

J: It’s intentional. But it’s almost like you’re riding some weird line sometimes. I don’t want the intentionality to be too obvious, as if I’m just trying to illustrate a point. There’s something about vagueness that leaves it open for interpretation. That seems to be one of the strong points, especially with photographic images, because it doesn’t clearly illustrate something. Photography is different from painting or drawing, because in those mediums you begin with nothing, and you make something out of it. In photography you begin with everything, and you’re trying to whittle it into one thing. The cacophony and chaos of the world makes it difficult.

B: By stripping away the identity of the photographer, and the context of the work, is something new being brought to these images? What is it?

J: The anonymity of the image lends itself to a more steadied focus. You have to look and think about it. If the photograph was by a celebrated artist, people often know about the artist’s life more so than they even understand the work. And sometimes that psychoanalyzing is a little unwarranted. For example, some images, taken outside of the context of a “family vacation” being presented to the extended family, and then being put in the environment of these people at Vernacular Visions who aren’t just concerned with base facts, hopefully that encourages more thought from the viewer.

B: And I think that by stripping away the identity of the photographer, people can more easily approach the images as potential works of art, rather than some picture their mother, uncle or some other family member took.

J: When I was younger I was really averse to being spoken of as an artist, because I thought that it inherently implied pretension. And I think photography is the perfect medium for that aversion, because it’s so democratic. In other mediums it often feels like someone has invented their own world, and it’s being presented to me, but photography feels like the opposite of that. We see the world that we share from a different perspective.

B: As a photographer, how do you feel about transforming your role? I mean, with Vernacular Visions you’re basically a curator.

J: I’m comfortable with it. I guess my overall game plan in life is to teach. With an upbringing in punk and DIY culture, I can imagine being an educator in some sort of alternative setting. I try to keep Vernacular Visions kind of loose, but it is presented in this way, and people have spoken about it to me in this sort of manner. You’re not going to a lecture, but it encourages thought, to present something in a way in which people hadn’t previously seen it.

B: I kind of see Vernacular Visions as parallel to the zine you do, Slo-Mo, where you just photocopy found object and odd things, a sort of collecting and documenting process.

J: Well, I love collections. I lived in Bloomington, Indiana for five years, and on the University campus there’s a place called the Lilly Library. They would create exhibits of odd books, tiny Bibles, a lock of Sylvia Plath’s hair, and that place kind of got me thinking about how when I was a kid I was really into collecting stuff. It’s kind of embarrassing, but I had these action figures, and I would just set them up neatly on a shelf more than I would ever play with them. I never hammered them together to act like they were fighting. It was just about collecting. I never followed baseball, but I wanted all the baseball cards, and I’d keep them neat in the sleeves. Part of it is the collecting and searching, but the other key aspect is the presentation and display.

B: Are there any particular slides that stand out for you as personal favorites?

J: The recent program that was screened at Artists’ Television Access was an assemblage of the “greatest hits.” My number one favorite seems to have been taken from the perspective of a woman who has just given birth, and is on her back in the hospital bed. A doctor is handing the baby toward her, toward the camera. The umbilical cord is still there. I would love to see a huge print of that one on a wall.

B: Besides a good time, what should viewers get out of attending a Vernacular Visions?

J: I hope that people will see it as a low stress environment to encourage thought, which I think could range from discussions of socio-political theory to talk of composition and form. That’s what I’d like to imagine is happening, and I think that’s what people have been getting out of it in various ways. No one’s ever complained!

Interview With Straight Crimes

Originally appeared in Maximum Rocknroll #372 (May 2014).

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I can’t help seeing Oakland’s Erin Allen as a sort of renaissance man. Established as a visual artist; Allen is also abundantly active as a musician. Most in the Bay Area would be familiar with him for his parts in such noise rock and art punk bands as Sisterfucker, Work, Child Pornography, and High Castle. I first crossed paths with Allen in the spring of 2013 when I was crashing on the couch at the Huffin House, where he lives. At that time he was just launching a new project, an abrasive two-piece punk band called Straight Crimes. Won over by the grit and the hopeful nihilism of the songs, I sat down with Allen to talk about Straight Crimes, and their new 7” record.

MRR: Where did the name Straight Crimes come from? What does it mean?

The name is old. It’s been around for a while. I came up with it when I went on tour with Child Pornography. Because people were having trouble with that name I came up with Straight Crimes.

MRR: As an alternative?

Kind of an alternative. But I had also made some music as Child Pornography, and put it all on a CD, and called that Straight Crimes. And I was pretty much playing that music for the tour. I was watching the TV show Cops while making the music, and I sampled from it heavily. And I swore not to watch Cops ever again after that (laughs). The name to me means the straight life is not void of criminality. It’s dealing with marriage and its dealing with things that are…

MRR: The straight life in a conformist sense?

Yeah, and I also just think the name is funny. I just chose to use it because I had been in bands with fucked up names, and I just thought this was more open-ended.

MRR: I remember you were telling me once that people thought Straight Crimes had to do with “straight” as opposed to “queer.”

Yeah, I got a lot of flack for it at first. Some shit happened on the internet (laughs). That shit happens, and it only happened one time, but yeah I got flack for it at first.

MRR: How would you define Straight Crimes? A friend of mine called it “garage rock,” and I don’t really see it that way. How do you see it?

Blues punk. I mean, I just try to write songs with a guitar, and I pay attention to what has been done before with other guitar music.

MRR: I see it more as a sort of stripped down punk rock.

Well, there are flourishes there. I guess what I do with the guitar sometimes, there’s all that twang thing that I do. I mean, I’m not offended by being called garage rock. Some people would be.

MRR: Are there any particular bands you were influenced by?

I think what formed me as a guitar player was being a bass player first. And then I got turned on to Arab On Radar, and that taught me how to play guitar. I feel like I steal a lot from the B52’s, because there are a lot of moves that they do that I totally rip off. That guy had like two or three strings, and I basically play the guitar like I have two or three strings, even though I have five. And the detuning came from wanting to sound like Arab On Radar and Pink and Brown. Pink and Brown was an old John Dwyer project from San Francisco. I guess in general, I listen to a lot of jazz literally all the time. Mainly Charles Mingus, Eric Dolphy, and Roland Kirk. Jazz and Elvis. Lots of Elvis. I am disappointed at the punk view of Elvis. People in the underground generally dismiss him. I don’t think you have to like his music, but to hate on Elvis in a conceptual manner comes from an uninformed and ignorant point of view.

MRR: It’s interesting that you started as a bass player, yet Straight Crimes has no bass player.

I guess I play all the bass parts on the guitar. I’ve been thinking about that a lot lately, especially now since I don’t have a drummer (laughs). It’s always been a question whether or not to get a bass player, to sound fuller or whatever. But the whole thing about having a bass player for the band, especially in its recent past when I still had a drummer, is that this person would be doing essentially what I’m doing, and I would be telling them what to do, and they would just be another face. And I’m fine with that because it would be cool to have another person there with us, because maybe the audience would get bored with looking at me, and then looking at the drummer, maybe they would need to have someone else to look at too? But then that’s all the bass player would be, and they would be this person that I’d be bossing around, and I don’t want to tell someone what to do. So that’s always just kind of made me nervous about having a bass player.

MRR: Are you going to go with the drum machine from here on out? Because you’ve had two drummers now, right?

Yeah, I mean, essentially both drummers—Mick Crosby and Brad Bingham—have just had to leave town for one reason or another. I have experience with a drum machine because of Child Pornography, so I just decided to go for it and try it out. And it’s working. I made some four-track recordings. That made me feel a little bit more confident about it. There’s going to be a handful of drummers helping me out. Thomas from Baus, and Steven from Processors, are going to help me out for a couple of gigs in March.

MRR: Didn’t you play drums in another band?

I’ve played drums in Sisterfucker, and I played drums in Work. And I also played drums in a band called Fuck You. Now I’m in Violence Creeps playing drums.

MRR: How did you transition from Child Pornography to Straight Crimes?

Well, Child Pornography is punk music. It’s keyboard music. I had a drum machine. It was blues punk too. It was like the Screamers. I mean, the Screamers were just playing their instrument. They weren’t playing arpeggios. They weren’t hooking up their keyboards to sequencers and shit. They were just playing their instruments, and that’s what we were doing.

MRR: Was it just transitioning from keyboard to guitar?

Yeah. I mean, I played guitar in Child Pornography, but then I stopped. And then I started playing guitar again because of my other band High Castle.

MRR: Let talk about your new 7” for a minute. You have a lot of songs. Why put these four particular songs on the 7”?

Because they were the best ones.

MRR: You think they’re the best ones?

Maybe, yeah. It was all about math. It was going to be a 12”, and then I thought that would be unwise because we aren’t going on tour or anything. We don’t have a van and we don’t have jobs. It just seemed more economical, because people don’t fucking buy records from bands here, they buy smaller things like tapes and 7”s.

MRR: What’s your favorite song on the 7”?

“Punch a Flower” is probably my favorite song, or “It’s a Shitty Night.” I chose those songs because they all seemed to have the same feeling. Like on the Wack Emcees tape, those songs are from the same recording session, but are more grindy, and more straightforward punk. These four are more like pop songs, something that someone would just want to sing along to.

MRR: I wouldn’t say “pop,” but the 7” is more melodic. And the tapes seem more noise rock, more gritty.

I would agree.

MRR: There’s a phrase from the song “Punch a Flower” about “wrathless abandon.” Do you think that pretty much sums up what you’re going for?

Yeah, I mean, that’s my worldview. I just write the songs and I don’t think of words until after writing the songs. I mean, they’re full of intent. “Punch a Flower” is a song about punk music, it’s about being disappointed with punk music while being a punk, or growing up with punk.

MRR: Is that why on the inside of the 7” jacket it says “punk is not a virtue”?

Definitely. It’s like, I want to be punk but I don’t know why I want to be punk. That’s my angle. That’s where I’m coming from. That’s why the words are what they are. The “punk is not a virtue” thing is something I came up with because some people who are punk lie, cheat, and steal. I mean, punk music is something that has been around for—when was the first Black Flag record, 1978?—and it’s now 2014, and punk was way before that record, and we keep doing it, and we do it for a reason. But we forget that we are ripping off rock n’ roll and jazz and blues. And people forget about all this stuff. So “punk is not a virtue” is about that. But it’s also about punks are shitty and stupid most of the time. I mean, um, I’m shitty and stupid (laughs).

MRR: Would you say that sums up your lyrics?

Yeah, yeah. And I like writing songs about God and shit.

MRR: Yeah, one of my favorite songs is called “Spiritual Nada.” It’s from one of the tapes.

I have a weird religious background. I grew up in a weird evangelical Buddhist shindig. I feel like I grew up with the same grammatical religious bullshit that everyone else grew up with if they grew up in a religious household. Every world event that is major and is affecting our lives is touched with religion. And so how could I not write about that. I just wrote a song about Heaven. (laughs)

MRR: So you have two cassettes?

The first cassette was with the first drummer, Brad Bingham, and some of those songs are on the next cassette. The first cassette also features a bass player that we got off of Craigslist. His name is Jeffry Ribz. I put out a Craigslist ad, and he answered it. He just jammed to the songs. But then he wasn’t really available for the next tape, and he just sent me a poem, and that’s why there’s that poem in the second cassette. I mean, the second tape is basically just what couldn’t make it on the 7”. It’s just from the same recording session. And side two is just a bunch of live jams.

MRR: I know you’re a painter. How is your visual work connected to your music? I mean, I can see you put a lot of work into the jacket of the 7”. I’m just trying to find a line between what you do visually and what you do musically.

The posters are the most direct thing I do that you can assign to my music. The poster series is influenced by the art of flyers, and protest language, and just, you know, attitude. I feel like it just makes sense for me to continue doing that. It’s from tour lingo, and conversations that I have with my friends, and lyrics of my songs or other bands lyrics. So that’s a direct connection right there. Not to say that isn’t in my other art, but for that poster series there’s always an exchange. And it’s always easy for them to be right there at a punk show to sling them or give them to friends.

Photo: Kelby Vera

MRR: I find the use of the term “protest language” interesting. Do you think that influences your music at all?

Oh yeah definitely. I guess more in an utterance way, more in the way in which I sing.

MRR: The disconnect for me is that I understand your protesting, but I don’t know what you’re protesting. I don’t really hear Straight Crimes as a political band, yet there is something that you’re protesting.

I don’t want Straight Crimes to be a political band, but it is. What I want is for people to get a glimpse, get an idea, and then to form their own idea, form their own thoughts. I don’t ever want to give somebody an answer. I generally try to pose questions. But as of late I’m trying not to just pose questions, but also tell stories and be more narrative. But generally my attitude is to pose questions. I mean, that’s what the band name kind of is. Straight Crimes is kind of a question.

MRR: There’s a confrontation. But I feel like it’s in a more social way. Do you feel like art needs to be confrontational?

Generally, yeah. I participate in making confrontational imagery. That doesn’t sell, but that’s what’s remembered, and that’s what’s discussed. There’s all sort of art that is sold that is rich people’s wallpaper.

MRR: Some of your lyrics from “Punch a Flower” are “it’s easy to perceive, what you want to see/cough it up and call it blood it’s so simple to name it love.” What can you tell me about that?

Shit. I don’t know where that came from.

MRR: I think you’re talking about the phoniness of expression, in a way. It’s easy to put something out there are say, “this is my statement about the world.” But maybe there’s not always something behind that.

It’s hard for me to have a conversation about my lyrics, because my lyrics are pieced together. The way that I’m going to sing is pretty dictated by the music once the song is written. And I’m singing ad-lib, phonetically, making a mess of myself. And then lines work there way in. I guess that part in that song right there, well, I guess that first part is about High Castle breaking up. And the second part is about me falling out of love with somebody. All this different stuff happening. All these different things happening in different stages of when that song was existing.

MRR: Well, you talk about the breaking up of the band, and then the breaking up of a relationship. There are things that tie these words together.

Yeah, I don’t know if I can give you an answer. [laughs] For the most part, High Castle was a totally collaborative band. Maybe two songs I totally wrote, but the rest was just us jamming it out. “Punch a Flower” was one of the songs that I totally wrote for High Castle and we performed it at our last show. The lyrics were not fully developed at the time, or maybe rather, I changed some of the lines when I decided to do it as Straight Crimes. When High Castle broke up, it was weird because we kind of did it as a sit down, round table discussion. We just all agreed that we couldn’t write songs together anymore, but still wanted to be friends. I asked if I could still play “Punch a Flower” because I was already doing demos for Straight Crimes. Since I wrote the song and it was the direction I was going in, they said, “Yeah, but the High Castle version will always be better.”

MRR: I feel like your lyrics are really personal.

It’s funny, I really strive to write lyrics now, but you know when I was in Sisterfucker with Vanessa Harris half the time we were writing the lyrics right before we were going to record the vocals. And now she’s in Stillsuit where she sings, but she doesn’t have lyrics. They pretty much do what I do right before I write lyrics. (laughs) But they are steadfast, and they are sticking to it. I mean, it’s so weird, the pressure to write words. I definitely have the intention, but it’s weird that I would want to write the words, because most of the time you’re not going to fucking hear them at a fucking house show.

MRR: That’s just a way of being expressive, but keeping things hidden at the same time. Do you feel comfortable talking about your lyrics?

No, I don’t. (laughs) I wish words could be more heard at shows, but sometimes even because of the singing style, you just can’t understand the words. I can’t for the life of me understand what the fuck that guy in Sparks is singing about.

MRR: I want to get back to the music. I’m not a musician, but listening to the tapes many of your songs have a “marching” sound. I was trying to figure out where that comes from.

That comes from the Screamers, from bands like Crass. It comes from Sonic Youth’s more trotting rhythmic style. The “marching” feel I think is something that I’m very attracted to because there’s something about it that’s very protest-like, but celebratory at the same time. And also it’s like a dance beat too. Which is also like a lot of blues music that I listen to. I mean, I like making music that someone could move to. I started writing songs when I started fucking around with a drum machine. I guess that’s what has kind of informed me the most.

MRR: How do you see yourself, as the band Straight Crimes, relating to punk in Oakland? I guess what I’m trying to get at is that you’re really a solo artist, and that’s unusual. I mean, everyone is in a band.

I’m not by myself. The bands that I play with are writing those songs for me, basically. The friends that I have conversations with are writing the lyrics for me. I feel like I could be making this music with other people just as well as I’m making paintings with two other people. Collaboration is very natural to me.

MRR: So when you say they’re writing the songs for you do mean by knowing them, being exposed to them?

Yeah, what they do influences me. Nothing we do comes from nowhere. It comes from somewhere. And there’s so much different shit here in Oakland that can affect me, and it does. I don’t really feel alone. As far as the songs go, I might come up with a song and show it to a drummer, but what they do to it drastically changes it. And sometimes I change what I’m doing according to what they’re doing. Even though I’m acting alone I still feel like I’m participating with other people.

MRR: It’s interesting because I know the other project you’re involved in is a collaborative painting group, Club Paint. That’s a really curious contrast to you being in a band where you’re the only member.

Well, up to a few days a go I had another band member. (laughs)

MRR: But here you hold the reigns, so to speak.

There is always the person with the intent who is going to take charge… but I’m always open to input. (laughs)

MRR: How do you think it’s going to go tonight with just your drum machine?

Oh, it’s going to be the best show in the world. The only problem with the drum machine is that it can only be programmed for ten songs. Mick, the last drummer, he knew thirty-five songs!

Interview With Big Black Cloud

Originally appeared in Maximum Rocknroll #365 (October 2013).

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For me, music’s value lies in its ability to bring out the animalistic, brutalized, repressed side of humanity. In a sense, I see rock n’ roll as a ritual that can disarm what culture has stamped on us. When it’s at its best, it’s a process of de-evolution, turning listeners into wild, sweaty, chaotic participants. Big Black Cloud’s newest record, Black Friday (Eolian Records), exemplifies this. Hailing from Portland, Oregon, the trio—Nick Capello (guitar, vocals), Soo Koelbli (bass, vocals), and Travis Wainwright (drums)—has been playing together for seven years. I first saw them in 2006 at a house venue in Portland known as the Richland, and have watched them morph from a theatric art garage punk ensemble to an intelligent, feverish, full of panic and rage three piece. On the weekend of the Trayvon Martin verdict, Big Black Cloud came through the Bay Area while on a west coast tour with label-mates Drunk Dad. That Sunday I strapped on my overalls and took a walk through the protest-laden streets of Downtown Oakland to the Night Light bar where I had a brief question and answer session with the band.

What’s the origin of your name? What does it represent?

Nick: It was originally Here Comes a Big Black Cloud, which was a reference to a song that we had when me and Soo were in a band in New Orleans.

Soo: It also comes from the fact that we left New Orleans because of Hurricane Katrina and came to Portland, which is overcast all the time.

When people ask you about what kind of music you play what do you say? How do you explain it?

Nick: I usually say noise rock. I usually just go for something basic. Yeah, noise rock.

Soo: I would say it’s a loaded question (laughs).

Travis: Yeah, sort of abrasive noise rock.

When I first met you guys I remember it was sort of like garage rock, like the Mummies and the Oblivians. Do you not identify with that anymore?

Soo: No.

Nick: I mean there are certain elements that are garage-like I guess, but it’s more just being influenced by rock n’ roll.

Soo: Yeah, there are a lot of elements to it. But I think noise rock is the way to go.

What bands would you say have influenced you?

Soo: Brainbombs.

Nick: Brainbombs.

Travis: Acid Mothers Temple.

Nick: Arab On Radar.

Travis: The Beatles.

Nick: Yeah, we all like the Beatles a lot.

Oh, wow. Strange.

Nick: I listen to a lot of jazz.

What kind of jazz musicians?

Nick: I like Miles Davis. Eric Dolphy. For me, the more chaotic and weird the better.

Travis: Charles Mingus.

Well, who are you into right now though, as opposed to who you’ve listen to throughout your…

Nick: Right now I listen to a lot of jazz. I love jazz… and Kiss. Seriously, I listen to a lot of Kiss.

This new album, Black Friday, is your first as a three piece, right?

Nick: Yeah, but there’s a tape. But this is the first LP.

Your last album, Dark Age, was really expansive. How have you guys changed musically between Dark Age, and this new release, Black Friday?

Nick: We dropped two members, and that’s a big thing. We had to rethink our sound.

Soo: I think we play better together. We actually listen to each other’s parts a lot more.

Nick: Yeah, there’s a lot more give and take.

Travis: Instead of just burying it in random noise.

Nick: It’s more nuanced. It’s a little more… Well, I guess its not a little more spastic.

Soo: I think it’s more deliberate, though.

Do you think you’ve become better musicians? Do you think you’re more challenged now?

Soo: Hell yes.

Travis: Yeah, we write harder songs. That’s for sure. They take a lot longer to write, usually.

Soo: I think we all had to level up when we became a three piece. Because as a five piece, especially with a layer of noise guitar on top of everything, you just couldn’t hear everything, whereas everything now is audible.

What was the recording process for this album like? Who recorded it?

Soo: Alex Yusimov at the Pool Recording Studio in North Portland.

Nick: He’s done our last three records.

Soo: Black Friday took two years to get put out. This was kind of a nightmare album.

Nick: It took a year to make.

So: Yes, but we lost half of the album and we had to go back and rerecord it.

Are the lost tracks the same that appear on the cassette release, Shitty Vibrations?

Nick: Yes, those were like outtakes.

Soo: No, not just, because it also had a live set recorded at…

Nick: Oh, it also had a live set recorded at the Frawg Pound, and then there was one song that was recorded at…

Soo: Portland Air and Space.

Travis: That’s where we recorded the song “Shitty Vibrations.”

Soo: But, yeah, this album we didn’t even think was going to come out on vinyl. Four days before we got the call from Eolian we had a band meeting where we had decided we were just going to put Black Friday out on tape because we couldn’t afford to put it out on our own label, Stankhouse Records. We felt kind of, at that point, that it was kind of hindering progress, you know. We wanted to tour on something,

Nick: Well, he asked about the recording process, and the recording process was pretty fun, because Alex—and we have done three records with him—really indulged us and let us get pretty weird. We did all kinds of weird shit, and smoked a lot of weed.

Soo: So did Alex. (laughs)

Nick: Yeah, everybody was really, really high. And fucking around with weird shit.

Soo: And not all of it worked out.

Nick: A lot of it didn’t.

Travis: And in between the first and second sessions we wrote some new songs.

Nick: And we went on tour.

Travis: And refined the songs that we had, so it turned out better than it would have.

Is there a statement behind this new sound, from Dark Age to now? Is there a philosophy behind it? Is there something you’re trying to say?

Nick: No, not particularly. You know, conceptually we’ve always been about alienation and being paranoid.

Soo: Anxiety.

Nick: Being pissed. It’s all pretty emotional. I guess there’s not really a point to it.

Soo: I don’t think the statement has changed too much. I think our albums all sound pretty different one to the next, but I think that’s kind of part of our band. It’s just not sticking towards sound, but kind of continuing to explore whatever we happen to be into.

Yeah, I mean, I see it as sort of an agonizing sound of transformation. You know, whenever you’re going through a transformation it’s never comfortable. I always remember this movie clip from American Werewolf in London, the transformation scene, and that reminds me of you guys.

Soo: (laughs)

Travis: Sweet.

Nick: (laughs)

Soo: It’s never comfortable and it’s always a little bit messy. I don’t think we ever really perfected one sound before moving onto the next. But that’s kind of what’s fun about it.

It’s not like after the transformation. It’s like in the process.

Travis: Yeah.

How do the songs develop then?

Travis: A lot of them come from just a couple people being in the basement starting to play. They just come from a jam, and then become a song instantly.

Nick: Or it will be a riff. Someone will just have a riff. And then we’ll just fuck around with the riff. We’re all really self-conscious and critical, so there’s always, like, sometimes things will happen naturally, and we’ll be like, “Ah, we can’t do that, we do that too much. Let’s think of a different way.” End the song different, or something, you know.

Soo: We write a lot more collectively than we used to.

Did that sort of change come with the reduced membership of the band?

Nick: Yeah, yeah. It’s just harder to communicate with more people. You know, to be on the same level.

Two of the tracks on the new album, the title track and “Terror of Cosmic Loneliness,” are pretty intense instrumentals. Do you place more value on the music than the lyrics?

Soo: I do.

Nick: I don’t. They are equally important to me, but I write most of the lyrics.

Soo, why do you feel the music is more important?

Soo: One, probably because I don’t write as many lyrics, and because I think that’s just how I feel about music in general. I tend to see lyrics more as an afterthought, or a flourish to the thing. I’m happy if the lyrics fit the music and what it sounds like it’s trying to express.

Travis: I think the vocals are really important. Actually, I find that usually my favorite vocal moments are songs when it’s a sparse vocal part, but it just brings the intensity up so much, lyrically and musically.

I guess this would be directed at Nick. The lyrics are always pretty dark and psychological. What goes into writing the lyrics?

Nick: It depends. Typically I’ll come up with a couple of words first, or a rhyme scheme that I like, or just a line, and I’ll just rewrite, and rewrite, and rewrite, over and over again. I feel like my brain is a fucking hornet’s nest sometimes. I’m just trying to convey that feeling, and I think the music conveys that feeling. I feel like this with this band too. Aesthetically, it’s sometimes kind of hard to write things that are softer or innocent. I feel like this band is a highly conceptual band, aesthetically, musically, and lyrically. So I just try to find things that would sound right with the music. Different words, you know. I get stuck and I repeat myself too, like the word “brain” is in a lot of songs. The word “cities” is in a lot of songs. I just get stuck on shit like that.

Which brings me to my next question: Is “Bomb My Brain” a reference to the Brainbombs?

Nick: Well, “Bomb My Brain” is actually… (pause)

Travis: (laughs)

Soo: (laughs)

Nick: …yeah, totally. I was thinking about how cool their name sounds, and we needed lyrics for that song so I came up with that. This song is actually about how I think my boss fucking sucks though.

Soo: Are you sure you want that to be in the interview?

Nick: You know how many bosses I have? They can sit and guess which one I hate. He knows I don’t like him. Motherfucker knows I don’t like him.

My favorite songs on Black Friday are the last two: “Human Host” and “Medusa.” Can you talk a little bit about each of those songs, both musically and lyrically?

Soo: Nick and I wrote the words to “Human Host” separately. I wrote my parts and he wrote his parts. We talked a lot about the theme of it, which is I guess the idea of parasites in a few different ways.

Nick: It also comes back to this transformation thing. Wanting to see something pushed through. Don’t want to feel uncomfortable. Don’t want to be there on the inside. I want to be there when it pushes through, and transforms. It’s kind of like a lot of our themes, super sci-fi.

Soo: I also found it had to do with personal relationships, and how you tend to find a lot of your personal relationships are parasitic, and you find yourself at one or the other end of that.

Nick: Musically that song is easy as shit.

Travis: Yeah. It was one of our steps into writing more slow and sparse songs, and exploring space instead of just packing in a bunch of noise.

Soo: That song came about after we went to see Acid Mothers Temple play, and we were in that phase of pretending to be Acid Mothers Temple (laughs). Which was awesome!

Nick: Oh yeah. That was totally great.

I had kind of a weird reaction to that song because I immediately thought of it in Freudian terms, so I thought it was kind of creepy. A reference to like, you want to be back inside the womb, you know, but maybe I just misheard some of the lyrics.

Nick: No, no, no. Totally. That song is like our “sex” song. I feel like that’s the song that makes people want to fuck.

Soo: It’s so sexy.

Well what about “Medusa” then?

Nick: Well, first of all, “Medusa” is a rip off of a Cyril Neville song, like the beginning of it. And I heard that and I was like, “Fuck, man, we’ve got to rip that off.” And then, originally when I first had the idea for the song, I was telling these guys, “Dude, this will be like the first song on the record.” It will have the big build up, and then come in, and so originally it was supposed to be the first song on the record. Ironically it ended up being the last song on the record. Lyrically, I mean that one is real vague. It’s kind of about this comic book that I read where this lady can take her head off, and it flies around the jungle. And the song is also kind of about this documentary I watched about jungle cats. So, it’s kind of about both of those. I guess it’s about a fear—a sort of panic type mode—with this overseeing thing that’s inescapable, and you’re the person it’s pursuing.

So how does this pull into the Medusa myth?

Nick: I think it might have just been a rhyme scheme thing. I don’t remember.

Because I remember at some point you sing about the eyes.

Nick: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Maybe that’s what I was talking about, looking into eyes. Being afraid you’d turn to stone, like she’s Medusa.

And, you know, Medusa’s a very sexual character. Turns men hard. Turns men to stone.

Nick: Yeah, yeah. Totally. I think our music is super fucking sexual. It’s very sexual music. It’s violent and sexual.

And that’s what real rock n’ roll does. It’s really sexual.

Soo: Yeah.

Nick: We all love to fuck, Brandon.

Soo: (laughs)

Travis: (laughs)

You’d think that (laughs). Well, what about that song musically?

Travis: That one took awhile.

Nick: That was a weird one to figure out, because it was a conceptual thing. We had the bare-nare-nare. That was already laid out, but after that we were like, “Fuck, where do we go from that?” We knew that we wanted to have a build up, and we had the chords, but it took a second. And then there’s this whole breakdown in the middle. And Soo and I, we had a bunch of practices—just the two of us—to figure out the middle, because Travis was out of town or some shit. Me and Soo kept getting together and were like, “What are we going to do in the middle of this? How are we going to write a bridge to this song?”

Soo: I think that’s a pretty good example too of how we function differently as a three piece now, because that’s something we never did before. For Nick and I to get together and actually listen to one person’s riff and try to actually write something that makes sense, as opposed to as a five piece when we would plunge into it way more and not be listening to each other.

Travis: Yeah, because it’d basically be one person’s idea with the five piece, and everyone is augmenting that instead of like now where we are coming up with it together.

Nick: When we became a three piece it was kind of weird because we had to rethink what kind of music we made, because we didn’t know what kind of songs we could write. There’s a lot of shit we tried that just didn’t work. When we remade the record we recorded a shit load of songs that we’ll never play again and will never see the light of day. And after hearing them recorded we were like, “Ah, we’re not really good at that. That’s just not our thing.” And that’s definitely when the album was coming together and were like, “We’re good at that thing. We should explore that territory.” Rather than taking a song that has a riff that sounds like the Kinks or something and bludgeoning it to death.

Travis: Going into the record we decided to take our time, just to make sure that we got it.

Nick: Well, that’s what was great about working with Alex. He’d just let us fuck around.

I think as writers you’re tighter, but do you also think you’ve loosened up a bit? I feel like a song like “Hate Myself” feels much looser. It feels more traditional rock n’ roll where the other songs feel like they have a heavier side to them. It seems like you guys can strip it down and at the same time do stuff that’s more intricate. I don’t think you guys would have had the courage to do something like “Hate Myself” before. I think before you were more concerned with trying to be too smart, and now you’ve eased up a bit.

Soo: I guess so. I never really thought of that.

Nick: I think a lot of times we’re a lot more playful and have a sense of humor than we actually come off as having. I feel like a lot of times people are like, “Ah man, ‘Hate Myself,’ and ‘Pile of Shit’?!”

Soo: A lot of it’s really tongue-in-cheek.

Nick: I thought “Hate Myself” was fucking hilarious.

I feel like those two (“Hate Myself” and “Pile of Shit”) are more of the punk rock songs of the album.

Nick: Totally.

Soo: I think we’ve loosened up in another way too. Something we never did before but we do now is a little bit more improvisation. We jam a lot more in practice, but even in shows there are some songs that don’t have definite endings, where it’s always kind of different and we feel it out. There’s a jam we do now that we play live a lot, and it doesn’t even have parts. It’s never solid and its fine like that. And that’s something we never would have done a few years ago, because it would have been a mess, a fucking mess.

Do you think this comes with being better musicians?

Travis: I think it comes with being able to play with each other better.

Nick: It’s with being a better band. It’s not being better musicians.

Soo: And I think it comes with we’ve played together for eight years now, the three of us. I think we can anticipate what each other is going to do a little bit more, and we’ve become a lot more attentive to how each other plays.

We talked about my favorite songs on the album, but what are your favorite songs on the album to play?

Travis: You know we only play about half of the songs on the record. The other half is new material.

Nick: This tour “Pile of Shit” has been one of my favorites to play. I’ve been really digging that. I always like playing “Cities of the Red Night,” but I like that song way more than these two guys. And I think we all like “Black Friday” a lot. I love playing “Black Friday.”

Soo: “Black Friday” is my absolute favorite.

Travis: And it’s not one we play, but “Gettin’ Heavy in The Jungle” is one of my favorite parts of the record.

What is it about these songs?

Nick: I guess its just the song itself feels good. I like playing the faster songs. And I like “Black Friday” just because I get to do all that shit with the slide that’s ridiculous but it’s really fun to do.

Soo: I like “Black Friday” because it’s so full of anxiety, so tense and frantic. I kind of think of it as our version of, like, “The Flight of the Bumblebee” or something (laughs).

Nick: It’s almost like a blues song but fucked up.

Soo: I like “Human Host” too. We don’t really play it anymore.

Travis: Yeah, that one’s fun, because it’s sinister but soothing at the same time. It’s really fun to play and really fun to listen too.

On the Shitty Vibrations tape you have a song called “Cocaine World.” What’s your relationship with drugs?

Travis: We have a strong relationship to weed.

Nick: We have a strong relationship to drugs. Those lyrics are a joke. I had a dream and there was a stupid song in the dream about cocaine, and I basically just rearrange the lyrics for that song.

Soo: We have a strong relationship to drugs.

Nick: Yeah, we really like to party.

With your newer sound do you feel you get more respect?

Nick: Yes! I think we’re getting a lot more respect than we used to. People are paying attention. I don’t know, it’s weird.

Travis: It’s not for everybody.

Nick: But in Portland, I feel we definitely get more respect there.

Well, it seems to me that Eolian usually does heavier music.

Nick: They still do heavier music. We’re just on the label too.

Soo: Yeah, this is kind of an experiment for them. Testing out the waters to see if they can widen their scope.

Do you guys consider yourselves outsiders? Where do you think you fit in musically?

Soo: I think we’re outsiders, definitely.

Nick: I don’t know, man.

Travis: We fit with a lot of things, but we don’t fit into much.

Nick: We’re not heavy enough to be metal. We are always too something to be something else. It’s always too far in one direction to be something else.

Are there any bands you identify with?

Nick: Oh definitely, but that doesn’t mean we sound like them. Yeah, I don’t know. I think we’re outsiders.

What’s going on with Stankhouse Records?

Travis: It’s been on hiatus due to financial restrains mostly, but it will be back.

What were the last tapes you guys put out?

Travis: Drunk Dad’s Failhouse EP, Valkyrie Rodeo’s Ready, Set, Ruin, Tiny Knives’ Static, and our own Shitty Vibrations.

Nick: Hooded Hags is going to have a tape out on Stankhouse soon.

I’m out of questions. Is there anything else you guys wanted to say?

Travis: Where can I get the best deal on some overalls?